В этом выпуске программы «Бизнес-секреты» Олег Тиньков беседует со Стивеном Дженнингсом, основателем инвестиционной группы «Ренессанс Капитал». Стивен, приехавший из Новой Зеландии, стал одним из самых успешных иностранных предпринимателей в России, начав свой путь еще в начале девяностых. В интервью обсуждаются этапы ваучерной приватизации, создание инвестиционного банка с нуля после ухода из Credit Suisse First Boston, стратегия экспансии на рынки Африки и Украины, а также личные взгляды гостя на предпринимательство и причины, по которым он предпочитает работать в России, несмотря на риски и сложности.
Oleg Tinkov: Okay so ladies and gentlemen we have got very important guest here in the studio his name is Steven Jennings he is the uh owner or he is the co-founder and founder of Renaissance Capital group one of the most famous if not the famous most a foreign businessman in Russia he has been in Russia for 10 years or so he is going to tell you about that not even no 15 years or so he is probably one of the most if not the most successful again foreign businessman and uh uh I try to bring my friend Steven for a couple of months he especially after I have seen his uh impressive interview at uh hard talk show with Steven sigur called yes um of course I am not Steven sigur I will not ask I will this be much more interesting I will not ask you tricky questions BBC interview is very boring this will be fun I will I will try to be controversial at least okay could you please start uh because um not all of the our uh not not not of our viewers know you and so could you please explain where you born?
Stephen Jennings: Sure quickly maybe five minutes yep I am in New Zealander I was born in New Zealand I grew up in the provinces from a very simple Village not even Village on a farm oh my God so quite humble and simple background I am from a very beautiful country so I went to University I did two degrees in economics my first job was New Zealand in New Zealand working for the New Zealand treasury which is like your Ministry of Finance so as in involved in a huge amount of reform in New Zealand in the 1980s I worked for the Minister of Finance then I went into the private sector and Investment Banking in New Zealand and Australia my firm was bought by C first Boston so I moved with them first to London and then I came to Russia in 1992 together with bis Jordan was it Nicholas Jordan bars was even here a little bit before me.
Oleg Tinkov: And then how you evolve from the worker of credit with was it credit with Boston right yeah and into your own your own business you know to do anything this is this is the most specific question always having on the comments like okay the guys is telling he been working for someone and then he create something?
Stephen Jennings: As you know to do anything in the early 90s in Russia you had to be an entrepreneur absolutely anything so imagine trying to build the first Investment Bank because when I came here the there was no private ownership there was no Securities regulation there was absolutely no Market nothing existed no buyers no sellers no Dr Del has already exist no no no no there was literally no public company in Russia so the first thing we did was the voucher auctions the privatizations so we we privatized the first companies and then on the back of that we created the voucher Market on the back of that we did the first Equity trading so you had to be an entrepreneur.
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Oleg Tinkov: Do you think it was by the way do you think it was good idea of chis to having this um taking this path of privatization this through the vouchers and stuff what do you think?
Stephen Jennings: Yeah I am very bi cuz I was involved but yes I very strongly believe that the voucher privatization was the right thing I think assets had to be put into private hands very quickly and we had to unleash the potential of private ownership so some of the later aspects of privatization loans for shares had some very questionable aspects to them but voucher auction it was very transparent everyone could participate the process was clean and it it moved 5,000 large companies in less than three years so it was a very sort of historic movement of assets into the private sector and if you look at what’s happened in the Russ Russ in the last 20 years all the value has been created in the private sector so I think it’s very lucky that happened.
Oleg Tinkov: Okay and then you established with your partners res yeah Capital right?
Stephen Jennings: Then we built Russia became the second most profitable country in the world for csfb so with a handful of people virtually no capital and with very little support from New York or London or anywhere else so basically we realized we were building the business we had to become entrepreneurs we were entrepreneurs we weren’t really very dependent on support from the rest of the world so we said to ourselves why do we need these bureaucrats and all these forms we need to fill in every day let’s just do this on own so one day 30 of us left and we started to build our own Investment Bank.
Oleg Tinkov: 30 what a spinoff okay and where did you get the capital from your bonuses?
Stephen Jennings: We knew an exm ah we knew Mr panan and Michael proc m so they gave us some cash and we gave them a 20 percent shareholding in the business.
Oleg Tinkov: This is come back for Michael okay and that was that was C capit that was our SE Capital okay and then uh you you have been involved in the very first uh public offering now was it you or?
Stephen Jennings: Yeah we did vcom vmc was in 1996 was the first ever London Stock Exchange listing for a Russian company I think it is New York no yeah yeah NYC yeah but everything was a first everything was a first in those days first privatization first m and a deal first IPO still had some competition from troa didn’t you?
Oleg Tinkov: The market was was very concentrated there were only a small number of players there was another there was American guy right who was running this troa I forgot his name Bernie such was at troa he was one of the pioneers why he left Russia he fed up or maybe he is having a break he is a very good guy he achieved a lot of things by the way why don’t you take the break because being one of the richest new zealanders as far as I rememberr it somewhere you can afford just to come back to a beautiful country build the biggest ever house buy beautiful yach and finally enjoy your life and go around the New Zealand or even come to Fiji and and enjoy yourself why you still fighting here what makes you stand up early morning and go to to to the through the smoke in Moscow through the pollution and stuff like that?
Stephen Jennings: Well I like Moscow but that is another story.
Oleg Tinkov: You like pollution?
Stephen Jennings: No I like Moscow I like MOS traffic jump no you if you want to play what what makes you still to be here what makes you it is like a sport you know if you if you want to compete you have you have to compete so if you want to play the game you have got to be ready you have got to compete you have got to try and win.
Oleg Tinkov: But me you won a couple of times?
Stephen Jennings: Yeah no but I enjoy it so I enjoy building things I enjoy creating teams of people I like building different things in different places it is hugely satisfying for me but I like competing also.
Oleg Tinkov: What is your sport because one of the question from Twitter they want they want the guys they want to know what is your sport rug right?
Stephen Jennings: Our national game is rugby okay we are the world champions as of two months ago so French yeah you be we just beat France yeah so this is part of our culture so from the age of five I grew up playing rugby and it is really part of the culture and the mentality so you have to fight and fight and fight it is a very physical game and yeah you have to fight.
Oleg Tinkov: That is you know the equivalent you have here is ice hockey very physical very competitive cool some of the people lately are even some journalist and some our colleagues they are saying that the best times for renissance capital is over how you can comment on that you know businesses go on Cycles like in 20 years I said I don’t want to be Sig but I try to be controversial in the last 20 years I have heard that so many times and actually I like to hear that so I think a no no doubt is a just like household name it was for the investment banking it was the name it was everybody afraid you everybody respect you and so on and so forth 2 to 2008 and last two three years it seems like there is some you have some concern with your strategy with your partners and stuff like that?
Stephen Jennings: So I think it is just another I think every the beginning of every cycle a lot of people talk a very big game about what they are going to do every cycle the market structure has changed and it is a matter of going through and seeing who has the best products who is the most determined.
Oleg Tinkov: But but you still believe in independent Investment Bank in Russia?
Stephen Jennings: Yeah even more so than ever because we have like everything we have a certain like your business there is a certain segment for the state the state has strengths the state has weaknesses there is a limited piece for the foreigners cuz the foreign are not very committed and there is a big piece for someone who is very committed and very entrepreneurial and being the only imagine the only real private sector Investment Bank in a country as big as Russia it is a huge opportunity.
Oleg Tinkov: Yeah and talking about it foreigners and also a bit controversial again but foreigners are more bureaucratic because for us back days we were thinking like it is a role model so the foreigners what they do we have got to copy but at the end of the day now what we see that the forign banks at least in our sector and I am sure investment they are more Bure bureaucratic much more bureaucratic they are not committed the decision makers are not here the decision makers and basically they lost the Russian at least on the commercial banking SC there is no maybe OTP is OTP in Home Credit only but I don’t think the investment banking is so different the decision making is in London or New York and now that they have huge problems themselves they are retreating prot I think the threat you are going to have are you already having from vtb obviously and from bban troa now so that is your biggest?
Stephen Jennings: There is always someone there is always some competitor every cycle it is somebody else it used to be troa it used to be UBS used to be a Powerhouse yeah Deutsche used to be a Powerhouse I have seen Goldman Sachs I have seen them close their office here they never been Power House in Russia no but they they my partners by the way they they talked a very big game at various times so the first time I was flying to Russia in 92 I was flying on the plane with very senior people from Goldman so we have seen all these competitors come and go so many times but in our business being there consistently year and year out it is very very important and then we diversified enormously we diversified into other Industries forestry Consumer Finance agriculture in Ukraine we we bought assets and built businesses right through Africa which really is the frontier of the Emerging Markets now that is the right time.
Oleg Tinkov: That is the right time to ask about Africa so what do you think about differences and similarities between Russia 92 and Africa these days are they more advanced or is are we will We Pig ma at that time or are they now where we at now could you compare those two markets?
Stephen Jennings: It is always important in Russia to remind people of the differences obviously Russia is a very sophisticated and and highly cult culted and highly educated Society so it is almost unique globally in that perspect from that sense so Africa you can’t even begin to compare but what what is similar is that Russia had its economic takeoff in the 90s over the last 15 years Africa’s economic takeoff has has started now so the thing that is similar is these very very high growth rates Africa is the second fastest growing region in the world it is growing only slightly slower than Asia so within a couple of years it will be the fastest growing region in the world and because it is so poor that growth can continue for a very long time so that is that is where the parallel is.
Oleg Tinkov: And what about natural resources they also reach the natural there also comparison right?
Stephen Jennings: Huge natural resource endowment across many different asset classes so Russia is all about oil and they what do we have there as a you have everything Minal you have oil gas copper coal agriculture every mineral CL you can think of but Africa is not primarily about natural resources in 2009 after the crisis is Africa was the only region in the world that didn’t have a single quarter of negative GDP growth.
Oleg Tinkov: Is that your strategy I am kind of trying to think your way so your strategies you became 92 so you succeed you won and now you try to replicate same model or do exactly the same in Africa you feel it is now just in time in Africa is that?
Stephen Jennings: Yes and no yes because it is the time to go and and buy cheap assets and build businesses where there is not very much competition but no because Russia and Africa are becoming part of the same world so when a market starts you can have an investment bank that is just in one country could be Spain it could be England it could be Russia as the markets develop the attractiveness of that model ultimately diminishes because as the country becomes integrated into Global Capital markets as a one country player you have huge weaknesses so if you want to be a powerful Investment Bank you have got to work across many emerging markets today so the strategy the attractiveness of Africa on a standalone basis reforce structurally what we have to do in the Investment Bank we have to be a multi-regional Emerging Market Investment Bank otherwise we will be a tiny Niche player.
Oleg Tinkov: But would you admit that you you had a mistake going to Ukraine?
Stephen Jennings: No I don’t think so no no no we are one of the big players in agriculture in Ukraine I know we brought a lot of land that business will do which doesn’t worth now a lot what I understand right well we will do ebit Dar of around 90 million dollars this year on on a relatively small investment so highly profitable highly cash generative big growth and consolidation opportunities so no that that business has been very very successful for us and the whole agricultural sector if there is one sector where Ukraine has done much better than Russia it is agriculture.
Подписывайтесь на мой телеграм-канал Финсайд и потом не говорите, что вас не предупреждали: https://t.me/finside. Темы канала: экономика, инвестиции, финтех, банки. Автор: Олег Анисимов Также читайте книгу о том, как я погорел на стартапе.
Oleg Tinkov: Actually by the way Africa we know your results for R Sanskrit in Russia just been recently published and for those who don’t know they they go online and check it we know you just mentioned results in Ukraine what about Africa you are making money there at this point or?
Stephen Jennings: Yeah the Investment Bank we are making money but imagine we went very early and bought assets at a very early stage now Russia now Africa is very fashionable it is in Vogue but when we went there it wasn’t so we bought a lot of Natural Resources we bought a lot of real estate so one of we are one of the largest owners of real estate on the African continent we are building six large cities for example so those assets have revalued you know dozens and dozens of times in some cases since we bought them.
Oleg Tinkov: I see now your another uh wing of your Renaissance capital Credit One as one of the most growing Russian retail bank as a locomotive for your Russian business is that true is that is Russia is Renaissance Credit One if you know most important and is it locomotive of your whole business?
Stephen Jennings: Wouldn’t say it is a locomotive but again we are very happy with you know with the progress there because it used to be kind of spin-off it was just kind of as far as I remember it was your I wouldn’t say toy but it was just okay let’s try but seems like now it is your main business business in terms of net income the Investment Bank gave us the capital and the relationships and the access to build other big businesses so the forestry business is the largest log exporter in the world to China for example forry but it took time to build these businesses and get and get scale we started building these most of these businesses around eight 7 8 years ago so now they are all quite big they are all all cash generative and very profitable which means we have a much more you know diversified Group.
Oleg Tinkov: What is your strategy on Renaissance credit you would like to grow it would like to sell it or like to what do you want to do eventually with it?
Stephen Jennings: You we are we are positive I mean I don’t think mer I think I think you know the answer to that question but we we are going to have good growth in Russia the financial financial service industry is very undeveloped household debts very low the competitive environment the foreigners are leaving there is not a lot of players with strong technology you do but there is not many other players so the growth potential for the next few years as you know it is fantastic so we like that sector.
Oleg Tinkov: Perfect so time for the Twitter question um why Renaissance is not investing in very hard it sector?
Stephen Jennings: It is a good question to me because I really think the it sector is very cool now yeah we have sexy we have from time to time we we were very early sh holders in DST so very you should have been sitting there and we and we did sit there for quite some time so we sold that about 18 months ago oh so we do make investments from time to time but we had through a fund and with our own Capital we were DST shareholders quite early on.
Oleg Tinkov: Philosophical question are you happy with having such amount of money yourself personal?
Stephen Jennings: Well I think you happy I think you also know the the answer because I think I think if I probably do but we the D would like to hear it I think if you are motivated primarily by money let alone only by money it is a very limited motivation and it is a very strange motivation so personally I am not a especially materialistic person I like to build things I like to create things I like to have a nice lifestyle but to have a nice LIF St you don’t there is a limit to how much money you need so building something that you are proud of and your team is proud of where you can stand back and say we really created something that is more important for me.
Oleg Tinkov: And then the next question would be from me in this case could can you tell me being exper being the Foreigner in Russia what is the Mystic what what what what what what about Russian woman why all of the most of the foreigners eventually ended up married Russian woman what is the Mystic about this?
Stephen Jennings: At Last at last you are answering you are asking the most important question now the interview gets serious right yes finally you know they are clearly extremely beautiful very very beautiful because you have a lot of wom as audience I would like them to hear okay what what is buing well everybody knows that I am speaking the truth when I say this they are incredibly beautiful you know I think Western woman they they are been taught not to to really be woman not to be too feminine not to show their feminine side not to show their soul so the Western women they lost a lot of their femininity why it is the way of the Western World unfortunately whereas Russian women are very happy being woman they are being they are very comfortable expressing their femininity so you have this to high heals to have a high heals stuff right in every respect yeah and like Russians generally they have very rich Souls you know Russians are very rich people inside so this combination packaged in a woman it is a pretty pretty hard thing to turn down.
Oleg Tinkov: Good good answer what would would be a description of the world enterpreneur who is entrepreneur what is your description?
Stephen Jennings: I think entrepreneur has to be a little bit crazy because you have to imagine something or some way of doing things that other people can’t see and typically don’t believe in that is probably 10 percent of the equation the other 90 percent you have to have the energy and the drive to turn that idea or that Concept in into something tangible I think they are the two ingredients.
Oleg Tinkov: Okay and why Russia why you love Russia or if you love Russia and if you love why you love Russia what for?
Stephen Jennings: Yeah I do love Russia because and I think any Foreigner you can’t live and I have lived here for nearly 20 years so I don’t think I don’t think anyone could live in a country for so long and be happy if they didn’t if there wasn’t something about the people in the country that they really like so what a you you have to like the people or you can’t live somewhere for so long I I from the first few weeks I liked Russians so they are very talented excuse my French but the bullshit factor is very low they are very they are very very direct they are very warm they don’t suffer fools so if you are an idiot they will tell you probably to your face but they are very loyal the very the very deep the very interesting people.
Oleg Tinkov: And then you have Russia Russia is Big complex and challenging so if you want a big opportunity that is a huge challenge there is not bit many bit places to to go in the world so you have this challenging environment with a lot of opportunity with with very interesting people but then why Russians are not as entrepreneurial as Western people and why we are so far have not achieved yet anything big on the global scene however urri Miller and some other start to show that we can do things I am not talking Abramovic to buy a Chelsea or anything like that but why do you think we are behind in thisp?
Stephen Jennings: I don’t I don’t necessarily agree that Russia is behind in that respect I think the people I think to build because I just went to San Francisco I am sorry interrup interrupting you I just went to San Francisco two weeks ago and I met lots of Americans there I mean it is just different level of people they all about money all about entrepreneurism all about to create something to create value to create value for customers or for themselves it is all about money there all about to sell and when in Russia it is not it is one of the 10th may maybe in a narrow commercial sense they are more entrepreneurial but you have to be entrepreneurial just to survive and get by and adapt in Russia and we have to remember that for business the environment we have here it is it is a very hostile it is a very tough and challenging environment if you take our Russian entrepreneurs you put them on the same environment as people have in the west I think they will do just as well you have to be very good as an entrepreneur to survive and and be successful here I don’t think it is about the people I think it is we know that the laws are very challenging the bureaucracy is very challenging challenging the financial markets are extremely undeveloped let’s face it for small buses so this is a very tough envirment for entrepreneurs.
Oleg Tinkov: And that is very good next question what do you think is the Russia’s country biggest country risks you just named some of them but maybe what would be the the biggest for you for Renaissance for for Steven Jennings or for other Russian enterpreneurs and businessman you know I think well it is a slightly one to three corruption obviously?
Stephen Jennings: Or not give you a list more more fundamental in a way and it is a slightly sensitive subject today but the political system will have to evolve in Russia and it is going to evolve because the pressure for change will only get greater and greater and in today’s world it is not possible to suppress that pressure so I hope it evolves in a smooth way in a positive way but I think the biggest risk is that you know we have some disturbance or disruption and I and I don’t mean in the short term I mean more in the medium term about how the political system modernizes but as the political system modernizes all the other issues that we talk about the bureaucracy the corruption problems in the financial services industry they then they will begin to be addressed so they are all in a way the issues are all in a way linked to that to that to that problem.
Oleg Tinkov: Often we are being compare by local media and especially foreign media to the African country our political system to the African political system systems and Corruption stuff like that so what do you think where we are at I mean between Africa and Russia are we behind are we really between those country number one 90 to 92 or we still because you are dealing with the local governments here in there what do you think are we really pigm?
Stephen Jennings: There is not a there is not a linear comparison like that cuz Russia’s history it is so special it is so unique the the the starting point is so different so you can’t line these countries up and just make a linear comparison Russia has huge advantages but it also has some challenges which is specific to Russia’s history but as civil society gets stronger as institutions get stronger the political system will be forced to change and we we are living in a in a world it is a cliche but it is factually true change is accelerated economic change is accelerated but if we will have in Russia the how do you call it time of rule or no law rule of law rule of law sorry um when we will have in Russia a rule of law and when we will have established and modernized political other government institution then the margin for the businesses are going to absolutely but let me ask you one question want this you you want to be here the only Foreigner make a lot of money and repatriate the cash and go out of here why why why you want be westernized then your margin going to suppress I I don’t believe in this concept of westernization the I as you said at the very beginning the days when people look to the west and Western business Western political systems have all the answers it is history the West dominance it is it is in the past now and increasingly there will be new models which will be Emerging Market models yeah they will borrow some ideas from the west but they are not going to be carbon copies of what happens happened in the west so I think Russia will develop its own path let me ask you a question okay how many countries in the world do you think were democracies 100 years ago where every man and woman had the right to vote 100 years ago I will tell you maybe 20 none zero no there was Zero countries with universal suffrage New Zealand was the first country and that was less than 100 years ago so people talk about the west but they don’t even know understand the West’s own history you know the West had to deal with the same exactly the same kinds of issues and it took them hundreds of years to develop their institutions their courts their Democratic processes it is happening here but it is just happening much much faster and to always be looking at the West as a reference point it is interesting but it is not necessarily the most helpful way to look at things and of course you are not going to remind them about Sir Francis Dr right and what he was doing in the Pacific Ocean.
Oleg Tinkov: Okay that is ask you um what was you the most stupid purchase in your life?
Stephen Jennings: Anything we once bought another business in in Ukraine I don’t even want to mention what it was but it was the wrong idea we didn’t do our homework properly we had been having a lot of success we were overconfident and and we just we just weren’t diligent or disciplined enough.
Oleg Tinkov: Do you think are we are we similar similar Russians and ukrainians are we really similar or we are different from uu?
Stephen Jennings: Yeah there are differences obviously what now you are asking difficult questions well it is true ukrainians because a lot of people are are calling me and asking me to invest into Russia they love the model of TCS Bond they say you have got to come to to Ukraine you have got to invest you are going to win here but I am kind of afraid the I would call it mentality of local interpret would phrase me let’s phrase me this way any comments yeah I think politics is even less developed in Ukraine I mean some of the problems we have in Russia are probably even worse than in Ukraine so you know the barriers to doing business overall I think if anything are worse there I think certain sectors as I mentioned agriculture Ukraine has enormous comparative advantage in agriculture and you can see that in the success of its strong local agricultural players but I think in many other Industries the barriers are greater and you don’t have the scale you know the advantage that we have in our Consumer Finance businesses is the huge scale of 40 Millions versus what 30 yeah 40 but 40 yeah but again much lower per capita GDP so the pie is much much smaller.
Oleg Tinkov: Um what book books you reading now or what books you suggest to read to the local businessman?
Stephen Jennings: Yeah one really good book and it is similar to what we have been talking about which I just read it is called Civilization How the West beat the Rest by Nile Ferguson from from from Harvard and it is the story of how from nowhere and in a world where incomes across different geographies were very even several hundred years ago the West became very very ascendent but the book is interesting not so much in talking about the past but in making you think about the future because it makes you realize the things that created that ascendency for the West they are now being picked up by everybody else very very quickly so it it tells you that we are going to return to a world where income differences around the world will be very small again just as they were before the Industrial Revolution which means Asia the countries with the huge population bases and the natural resources will be the most interesting.
Oleg Tinkov: Okay probably the last question from myself you have a lot of intelligence around you and a lot of good brains and analytics what would be the price of oil that is the most important question of Russia what would be the oil price six months from now give me the number you know I think we are going to six months not three not nine six months from now?
Stephen Jennings: Yeah so I if I have to say a number I would say 110 115 dollars per bar you are bullish I am bullish Global GDP growth now is 4 percent so there is no growth in Europe but it doesn’t matter the global economy is growing at 4 percent and that is why the spot oil price is so strong and definitely there are Supply constraints there has been underinvestment in in oil production so I think for Commodities generally unless we have a complete crisis in Europe we are looking at you know a favorable environment.
Подписывайтесь на мой телеграм-канал Финсайд и потом не говорите, что вас не предупреждали: https://t.me/finside. Темы канала: экономика, инвестиции, финтех, банки. Автор: Олег Анисимов Также читайте книгу о том, как я погорел на стартапе.
Oleg Tinkov: Okay we have a kind of a rubric in in this program and then and at the end of the program the gas is telling straight to the camera hey you should tell the Russian entrepreneur businessmen you you basically you have to encourage them to start doing their own business not work for gaspro or even for renissance Capital sorry you you have to encourage them to do the business and here is your camera tell them something from the most successful foreigners who has been living in Russia for over 20 years stepen Jennings here?
Stephen Jennings: You know I think if there is any country in the world you should want to be an entrepreneur it is Russia because there there are many things that have not been built there are huge gaps in the economy there are huge gaps in in logistics and service areas so the the fundamental opportunity is there at the same time the environment and the constraints on building businesses is definitely going to go down over time the external environment is going to improve in Russia the question is do you have the dream and do you have the drive but if you have the dream and you have the drive you know you you have got to do that because that is that is what is going to give you a feeling of really having achieved your potential and and and and realized what you have got inside you that is what it is all about.
Oleg Tinkov: Okay here was farmer from New Zealand Steven Jennings at heart talk with Siberian villager OV thank you.
Стивен Дженнингс, основатель и совладелец инвестиционной группы «Ренессанс капитал» в программе «Бизнес-секреты с Олегом Тиньковым» (22.01.2011).
Founder of investment bank (Russia, Ukraine, Africa etc) Renaissance Capital Stephen Jennings in 2012 interview with Russian entrepreneur Oleg Tinkov (Tinkoff Credit Systems). Video in English with Russian subtitles.
